To Bix Tex:
You said:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are not calling me a liar.
No I was not. Thanks for seeing that.
I'm going to guess what you really mean is that you disagree with those 3 circuit overseers?
Yes! Those C.O.s told you wrong, as you can see from the quotes I posted earlier taken
from their own "Official" Elder guide book.
gave up a full scholarship to pioneer where I met my wife (still married after 26 years).
I'm happy at least 1 great thing came from your JW experience. :)
Truthfully? Okay, I'll be very honest. I don't think I've ever posted this anywhere on line on any board.
I feel both honored & saddened.
Honored that you have shared this part of your soul for the 1st time, here in response to my question.
Saddened because I don't want to open up old wounds. Thank you for your candor.
My parents were not Jehovah's Witnesses when they raped me.
Since the abuse that happened against you occurred before your parents were JWs, their was nothing the Elders could of done to them.
Why didn't my grandmother and aunt stop it?... I asked them and they didn't give very good answers.
This
Wall Of Silence is what I believe is at the heart of most unreported Abuse that occurs within the family. (
I'm not judging them personally, I'm just using them to make a generalized statement). How can the Police, Social Services or even the Elders do their job if no one within the family is willing to help stop the abuse.
I have a feeling that we will end up agreeing to disagree,
Probably, but it's nice we can both
civilly discuss controversial issues and at least "See" the other persons viewpoint, with out disrespecting the other person. I thank you and respect you for that.
If you had the power to write a new JW policy, what exactly would it be? and what steps would you implement to ensure compliance from all the Elders & C.O.s?
( Even though this sounds like a
loaded question, it's not. I believe you as a victim of abuse would have an advantage over others, in creating a practical but humane policy that balances the rights of both the accused & the accuser.)
notice that the Society uses certain legalese words such as "may be considered".
I agree with you! This is one of my
pet peeves with the GB. "Oh, we are only "Spiritual Food" providers. We only give "suggestions" based on Bible Principles, and let the Elders decide the final outcome". OK then. only use words like "
may"& "
could" & "
perhaps" throughout the whole JW Elder guide book. If, on the other hand, they want to have "King like" powers over the Elders, they should only use words like "
must" & "
don't". They seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. (Ah! but I digress)
1 Corinthians 4:8 (Amplified Bible)
"...you have
ascended your thrones and come into your kingdom without including us! And
would that it were true and that you did reign, so that we might be sharing the kingdom with you!"
At some point, don't we move beyond the "imperfect men" excuse?
Yes! but what is the Magic number? years? decades? centuries? We can apply that reasoning to any relationship or commitment we have made. A Marriage mate, A Job, our Government. At
what definitive point do we
throw the baby out with the dirty bath water?
In the country I live in, SOME people in high places have done "Bad" things in the past, and Some are probably doing more "Bad" things as I type this. (I hope they ain't reading this)
At what point do I say "That's it! I'm leaving this country because of the sins of SOME of my leaders." The answer varies for each person.
a child must present 2 eyewitnesses is not based on scripture, but on principle. Forgive me, but that is a big difference.
I respectfully disagree. Here's why: Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law, so you won't find as many "do this" & "don't do that" laws as you would find in the Mosaic Law.
2 Timothy 3:16,17 (New Living Translation) says:
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to
teach us what is true and to
make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and
teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.
So we as Christians must make
progressive congregational policies based on Bible principles that are
rooted in scripture. Just because there is no specific scripture dealing with child abuse doesn't mean we can't reason on the scriptures we do have, to create an acceptable procedure & policy for handling it.
Since the imperfect human "reasoning" part
is not directly inspired by God, we (the ones doing the reasoning) will constantly struggle and disagree, subsequently refining it until it works properly and fairly for all involved.
What's the other alternatives: (Black or White)
A) A child accuses someone in the congregation of molesting them. I then say: "hey! there's NO specific scripture in the bible dealing with this, so I won't even listen to what you have to say even though you have a video tape & 10 witnesses. Sorry my hands are tied little one."
orB) A child accuses someone in the congregation of molesting them. I then say: "hey! I take your word for it. I will disfellowship Bro. Accused at the next service meeting. Thanks for informing me little one."
I made both scenarios
purposely ridiculous to show the need for a "Grayish" hybrid policy based on Bible principles such as
Love,
Empathy & yes
"2 witnesses" whether it be 2 separate child accusers or police DNA evidence.
but surely you will agree with me that you cannot say that elders have ignored what you say to be true?
Yes i wholeheartedly agree with you on this, thus the phrase (Elders Gone Wild™). But neither of us know for sure if these Elders Gone Wild™ are in the Majority or the Minority.
I like that you highlighted the word "unsubstantiated". That's what this whole thing really revolves around, doesn't it?
Yes!
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses automatically assume the child is a liar and the sexual offender cannot be guilty unless he confesses?
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I automatically assume
the child is telling the truth. I've had numerous discussions with my friends and family (Elders, Pioneers, Publishers etc.) on this subject and most of them
feel the same way I do. But, unfortunately, the burden of proof must be provided by the accuser for a successful conviction by Caesar and for successful congregational action.
Sexual assault of a child takes place in the dark, it takes place where there are no witnesses.
Exactly! That's why this Crime is so
problematic for both
Caesar and JWs.
Again I say, look at what the organization DOES rather than it was says.
I agree! That's why I believe we have vastly different view points. I have seen
more Good than Bad in my many years as a JW living in various cities and experiencing various congregations on an intimate level. You have seen more Bad than Good I presume.
the Catholic Church, like Jehovah's Witnesses, refused to punish sexual offenders they knew to be guilty.
I
respectfully disagree with this statement. here's why:
The Catholic Church's Old Policy, like you said,
consistently refused to punish Leaders who were
proven Sexual Abusers. (there may have be exceptions. I don't know)
The JW's Policy
Consistently punished Leaders & Rank and File members who were
proven Sexual Abusers (their may have be exceptions. I don't know)
It's
not the same comparison.
Okay so if these guys can't tell who is guilty or who is innocent, then all the more reason they SHOULD NOT BE THE JUDGES!!!!!!
Solomon, a wise man,
could not tell who was telling the truth between the 2 women that came before him, by listening to
their testimony alone. (1Ki 3:16-28). So, he had to
trick them to get what he needed to make a wise judgment. But who has wisdom like Solomon? Not me.
Doesn't common logic dictate that maybe, just maybe, if it is beyond their ability to determine guilt or innocence, they should leave it to someone else?
That's exactly what they do. If they can't determine who's telling the truth they don't pass judgment. That why the Parents should go to the Police 1st. It's a crime, just like Murder.
"Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin"™
Let Caesar bag em and tag em.
But in the mean time I believe Elders should give spiritual guidance to BOTH the Accused & the Accuser until guilt is established. Because let's face it no matter who's telling the truth both will need Counseling after this.
To all you lurking Elders out there:
To simply say "just leave it in Jehovah's Hands"™ to me is a cop-out and insulting to the victim. If you are a spiritual shepherd then do some shepherding, Don't be lazy and just leave it in "Jehovah's Hands". Hasn't he supposedly appointed your hands to help victims in his absence. I personally know how beautifully, things can workout, if you GO that EXTRA MILE! I would quote a bunch of scriptures here, but you all know the ones I'm thinking of (Ahh! I digress)
Take Care Big Tex
-Sola
